I've been a member here for years and I rarely post and rarer still, start a topic. My involvement here is primarily reading people's comments which I find enjoyable, entertaining and educational.

As this is the 16th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks, each year on this date I believe someone reposts (something that I don't know how to do) the air traffic control recordings and we as an aviation enthusiasts community remember & pay tribute to those that perished that day. Maybe I missed it but was disheartened to not see a 9/11 thread today.

Just my two cents and my thoughts go to those that died in the terrorist attack 16 years ago.

I think the event may have been overshadowed today, and recently by the many storms the US and Caribbean area.

Being such a frontline and widespread issue at this very moment in time, the 9/11 me,oral may have been pushed back a little. Also, 16 years isn't exactly a major anniversary so won't have widespread events around it.

Obviously it is still an important and heartbreaking date in our history, it's just a sad fact that there have been events preceding that have taken the focus away.

It's only natural that it will fade out of people's memory. How many people remember the Pearl Harbor date? Oklahoma City bombing date?
I was at the drive-thru ATM with my 13-yo son just yesterday and saw the date pop-up on the screen, and exclaimed: Wow, tomorrow is Sept 11th!
His answer? "What's that? Is that an important date?"

Honest question: exactly how is one supposed to act today? Is one supposed to do something different today than yesterday? Take it from the standpoint of someone that did not lose a friend or loved one, as I would expect and agree the answer to be different for those folks. But what about everyone else?

I'll be honest. I don't do anything on June 6. I also don't do anything on December 7. And I doubt any of you do anything on April 4.

Everything is constantly changing. New generations of people growing up and without a memory of that terrible day. Circle of life, but that doesn't mean we can't pay tribute to those that perished on that day of course. But to put things into perspective - way more people get killed in traffic in the US every year than the amount of victims during Sept 11.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... S._by_year

bsmalls wrote:

Maybe I missed it but was disheartened to not see a 9/11 thread today.

Why aren't you disheartened about seeing one for Pearl Harbor? The end of WW1? End of WW2? Atomic bombings? Pulse?

I get it. It was a heavy day, one that those of us who were alive to witness will probably never forget. But on the other hand, we can't dwell in the past every time September 11 rolls around. Life goes on. We've mourned those who died; we've brought justice to many who were involved or affiliated with the masterminds of the attack. Memorials have been built. The flag is lowered to half-mast. It's not a matter of forgetting or becoming desensitized; it's a matter of having done enough grieving for those who were lost that day.

It's just like when a loved one dies of natural causes. Do they grieve their deaths 16 years after? Most likely not. They may remember and do a small, intimate thing. They all move on; life still happens and we can't stop it.

So I don't think people are forgetting 9/11, but people simply have moved on. As they say for military folk who die in combat, MIA, or POW: Gone but not forgotten.

I think about it every day. Every day.

This being a commercial aviation forum I don't particularly think it's the right venue for me or anyone to reflect on the events of Pulse, WW2, etc.

It's just that 9/11 was such a pivotal day for commercial aviation I figured someone here besides myself would bring up the topic.

Anyway, there now has been a discussion of the topic which I guess is what I wanted.

einsteinboricua wrote:

bsmalls wrote:

Maybe I missed it but was disheartened to not see a 9/11 thread today.

Why aren't you disheartened about seeing one for Pearl Harbor? The end of WW1? End of WW2? Atomic bombings? Pulse?

I get it. It was a heavy day, one that those of us who were alive to witness will probably never forget. But on the other hand, we can't dwell in the past every time September 11 rolls around. Life goes on. We've mourned those who died; we've brought justice to many who were involved or affiliated with the masterminds of the attack. Memorials have been built. The flag is lowered to half-mast. It's not a matter of forgetting or becoming desensitized; it's a matter of having done enough grieving for those who were lost that day.

It's just like when a loved one dies of natural causes. Do they grieve their deaths 16 years after? Most likely not. They may remember and do a small, intimate thing. They all move on; life still happens and we can't stop it.

So I don't think people are forgetting 9/11, but people simply have moved on. As they say for military folk who die in combat, MIA, or POW: Gone but not forgotten.

I did think about this incident today. But it is 16 years ago, so anyone whom hasn't reached the age of 20 hasn't heard of it first hand. And a lot has happened since. Unfortunately a lot of terroristic attacks. since then.

My first world event I actively remember are Chernobyl disaster and the Challenger accident. I was 9 at the time.

einsteinboricua wrote:

bsmalls wrote:

Maybe I missed it but was disheartened to not see a 9/11 thread today.

Why aren't you disheartened about seeing one for Pearl Harbor? The end of WW1? End of WW2? Atomic bombings? Pulse?

I get it. It was a heavy day, one that those of us who were alive to witness will probably never forget. But on the other hand, we can't dwell in the past every time September 11 rolls around. Life goes on. We've mourned those who died; we've brought justice to many who were involved or affiliated with the masterminds of the attack. Memorials have been built. The flag is lowered to half-mast. It's not a matter of forgetting or becoming desensitized; it's a matter of having done enough grieving for those who were lost that day.

It's just like when a loved one dies of natural causes. Do they grieve their deaths 16 years after? Most likely not. They may remember and do a small, intimate thing. They all move on; life still happens and we can't stop it.

So I don't think people are forgetting 9/11, but people simply have moved on. As they say for military folk who die in combat, MIA, or POW: Gone but not forgotten.

I wouldn't exactly call being flown into a building a "natural cause"...

Every time Standimg in a long TSA line I'm reminded of 9/11...and that, sadly, is our daily reminder. To your point though, when the 20 year 9/11 comes around there will be a lot more to it. Besides, today's hurricane related news is overwhelming the media. If today were a slow news day we would be hearing more of 9/11.

einsteinboricua wrote:

It's not a matter of forgetting or becoming desensitized; it's a matter of having done enough grieving for those who were lost that day.

Having lost both a family member and a friend that day, thanks for telling me I have done enough grieving.

I took a few minutes to think about it while lowering the flag to half mast this morning at work.

Hard to believe it was 16 years ago. I was 11 years old in my 6th grade Social Studies class that morning. It's amazing where life can take you in 16 years.

catiii wrote:

einsteinboricua wrote:

It's not a matter of forgetting or becoming desensitized; it's a matter of having done enough grieving for those who were lost that day.

Having lost both a family member and a friend that day, thanks for telling me I have done enough grieving.

Perhaps had you not called the individual above your post "jerkoff", you might get some individual sympathy?

As for what happened that day, time has moved on. I doubt any one forgets, but I personally don't dwell on it. I don't think we will see another such coordinated event take place. An individual aircraft perhaps. The new norm in terrorism seems to be smaller attacks which we've seen this year.

ROCDLFAN wrote:

I wouldn't exactly call being flown into a building a "natural cause"...

So your world would have stopped on September 11, 2001 and you expect everyone to join you every year?

I didn't lose anyone, but even if I did, would they want me to stop what I'm doing every time their deaths' anniversary rolls around? Probably not.

bsmalls wrote:

This being a commercial aviation forum I don't particularly think it's the right venue for me or anyone to reflect on the events of Pulse, WW2, etc.

So are we mourning the losses of 4 Boeing jets then? We're in the Non-Aviation section. Everything goes here. When Pulse happened, a thread was opened on it. When massacres occur, threads are opened.

catiii wrote:

Having lost both a family member and a friend that day, thanks for telling me I have done enough grieving.

I'm sorry for your losses, but I'm not gonna drop everything I'm doing every time the anniversary rolls around. If you want to continue mourning them, go right ahead, but don't expect me to do the same and don't judge my character for wanting to get on with life.

einsteinboricua wrote:

ROCDLFAN wrote:

I wouldn't exactly call being flown into a building a "natural cause"...

So your world would have stopped on September 11, 2001 and you expect everyone to join you every year?

I didn't lose anyone, but even if I did, would they want me to stop what I'm doing every time their deaths' anniversary rolls around? Probably not.

bsmalls wrote:

This being a commercial aviation forum I don't particularly think it's the right venue for me or anyone to reflect on the events of Pulse, WW2, etc.

So are we mourning the losses of 4 Boeing jets then? We're in the Non-Aviation section. Everything goes here. When Pulse happened, a thread was opened on it. When massacres occur, threads are opened.

catiii wrote:

Having lost both a family member and a friend that day, thanks for telling me I have done enough grieving.

I'm sorry for your losses, but I'm not gonna drop everything I'm doing every time the anniversary rolls around. If you want to continue mourning them, go right ahead, but don't expect me to do the same and don't judge my character for wanting to get on with life.

Regardless of your opinions, there's absolutely no reason for you to be such a blatant cynic. If you don't care, the. I really don't understand your reasoning on this thread.

"mass murder of historic proportions" don't go there, please don't compare this terrorist attack to something else.

Dutchy wrote:

"mass murder of historic proportions" don't go there, please don't compare this terrorist attack to something else.

Huh? What else is it?

Sigh.....
No I have not forgotten.

Yes the news around the USA today and the immediate problems and deaths due to the recent natural disasters are diluting some of the attention the 9-11 would otherwise receive here in the USA.

Yes time marches on and the sting of the event for those who weren't directly impacted by it does lessen. That is normal. I do not expect many to mourn the loss of my father 16 years later but his death is highly personal to me so don't tell me I shouldn't mourn it nor should you be be surprized if I get annoyed or maybe pissed if you slight the fact that I still mourn.

No the world does not need to honor this American terrorist attack as we do. We in the USA do not acknowledge other attacks that have occurred around the world.

To all who lost loved ones on this day 16 years ago, I wish the good memories of them to live on within you.

Tugg

I don't expect some internet nobody to be wildly. openly mourning my mum four years after she died, sorry I'm not stopping my life for your loss 16 years ago. It sucks to lose someone, but even the horrible nature of their death doesn't mean we should be browbeaten for not cancelling our day for it.

Tugger wrote:

Tugg

Thank you for your comment, Tugg.

catiii wrote:

coolian2 wrote:

I don't expect some internet nobody to be wildly. openly mourning my mum four years after she died, sorry I'm not stopping my life for your loss 16 years ago. It sucks to lose someone, but even the horrible nature of their death doesn't mean we should be browbeaten for not cancelling our day for it.

Go back and quote where anyone asked you to cancel your day for it?

Not my point, so no.

Redd wrote:

America isn't the only country in the world and you can't expect people who have much more horrible events in their country's living history to prioritize 'your' tragedy and commemorate it annually. .

You missed the point. I don't care if he, or anyone else, commemorates it. I do min him intentionally diminishing what it was.

coolian2 wrote:

I don't expect some internet nobody to be wildly. openly mourning my mum four years after she died, sorry I'm not stopping my life for your loss 16 years ago. It sucks to lose someone, but even the horrible nature of their death doesn't mean we should be browbeaten for not cancelling our day for it.

Go back and quote where anyone asked you to cancel your day for it?

Tugger wrote:

Sigh.....
No I have not forgotten.

Yes the news around the USA today and the immediate problems and deaths due to the recent natural disasters are diluting some of the attention the 9-11 would otherwise receive here in the USA.

Yes time marches on and the sting of the event for those who weren't directly impacted by it does lessen. That is normal. I do not expect many to mourn the loss of my father 16 years later but his death is highly personal to me so don't tell me I shouldn't mourn it nor should you be be surprized if I get annoyed or maybe pissed if you slight the fact that I still mourn.

No the world does not need to honor this American terrorist attack as we do. We in the USA do not acknowledge other attacks that have occurred around the world.

To all who lost loved ones on this day 16 years ago, I wish the good memories of them to live on within you.

Tugg

This is perfectly put.

coolian2 wrote:

catiii wrote:

coolian2 wrote:

I don't expect some internet nobody to be wildly. openly mourning my mum four years after she died, sorry I'm not stopping my life for your loss 16 years ago. It sucks to lose someone, but even the horrible nature of their death doesn't mean we should be browbeaten for not cancelling our day for it.

Go back and quote where anyone asked you to cancel your day for it?

Not my point, so no.

Not your point? You said, "even the horrible nature of their death doesn't mean we should be browbeaten for not cancelling our day for it."

So again, who was browbeating you to cancel your day for it?

Please be respectful of the topic, or don't post. There's no need for ridiculous flamebait comments.

✈️ atcsundevil

I wouldn't say that we are forgetting it, perhaps it's more that our perspectives on it are changing. Scrolling through social media and other parts of the internet today, it's hard to miss something that relates to 9/11. We make a big deal out of remembering it here in the US since it really shook us to our core. But being 16 years on from it, and having lived with the changes it brought to our society for that long we think about it differently.

We all have probably thought about it today, probably more than once. But does it prohibit us from doing anything else? No, that's the whole point of being reflective.

I got to go to the memorial and museum back in May and was very moved. I learned more about what happened, and saw as much as one can see retrospectively in a first hand way. It was worth it.

I was in Boston for the 2013 bombing, and in a similar way, I think about that instance every April 15th but not in an effort to dwell on it. I do it merely because reflecting is imprortant.

Remembering it is one thing, but learning from it would be better. With all the sabre rattling going on these days, this has clearly not happened yet.

I note the day, but today was just another day for me, for some of us, the USA is a far away place, an occasional holiday destination for some. For me personally I was 7 years old, living in South East Asia, I've never met anyone who was involved, or anyone whose relatives/friends were involved, it just seems so distant for me. Disasters like the Boxing Day Tsunami in 2004 are much closer to my heart as I was there.

I think that when my loved ones go I will post pictures/memories of them to close friends, but the day wouldn't stop, it would just be a little reflection on the loss. I wouldn't expect anyone to grieve with me, death reaches out for us all at some point, we can't dwell on the past indefinitely.

I'll readily admit that despite a few friends being directly affected that I just don't care anymore. It remains without question the most politicized event of our times and served as the impetus for so many Americans becoming xenophobic pansy-asses, and worse, made being a xenophobic pansy-ass socially acceptable.

ROCDLFAN wrote:

Regardless of your opinions, there's absolutely no reason for you to be such a blatant cynic. If you don't care, the. I really don't understand your reasoning on this thread.

A question was asked dealing with how 9/11 is no longer remembered as it was before. I answered with a possible reason of why it is such, not a course of action. Don't see how this makes me a cynic. Maybe you want to postulate why 9/11 is not revered like before instead of engaging in ad hominem statements?

Tugger wrote:

nor should you be be surprized if I get annoyed or maybe pissed if you slight the fact that I still mourn.

As I stated, you are free to mourn all your life if you want. But don't get "annoyed or maybe pissed" if I think I've mourned enough over a loss that is not personal. I empathize with you and send condolences. What else would you expect me to do?

Aesma wrote:

With all the sabre rattling going on these days, this has clearly not happened yet.

And this is one of the negative social consequences that has come out of it. I remember that in the months after, waving a flag showed your love for the country and it got to the point where if you didn't have a flag, your patriotism was questioned. Heck, when I had Facebook open, a contact (conservative as they come, from AL no less) criticized the DNC for not having enough American flags at their stage during the convention. This thread is further proof that the extent goes beyond just showing patriotism.

"No thread was open to commemorate 9/11? Well, it must be that we're already forgetting". No...I haven't forgotten. I will never forget where I was on that day when I found out, how we were kept in the dark because cellphones were not smartphones and we didn't have TVs or radios or internet access to know what was happening. I will never forget leaving school on the school bus and asking the driver for details of what she had seen. I will never forget coming to my grandparents' house and seeing all the TVs tuned into CNN and seeing the planes crashing into the towers and the towers collapsing.

But what else can I do? Or better yet: what else am I expected to do?

The WTC site ceremonial gathering was smaller this year, especially as last year was a 15th anniversary. Yet as night fell, the memorial area was crowded with visitors from around the area and the world. Almost every name cutout had at least one flower in it. I work in a WTC building. I work with people at work in WTC 1 on 9/11/01. Almost every week I take a walk around the area either at lunch or after work. 10 days after 9/11 on stood on Broadway near Liberty street and saw the pile of rubble that was once the towers, my feet kicking up the thin layer of dust. Yes, it may fade to less thought of by many, especially if a child or not born when it happened. The mass destruction triggered terrible changes in civil and personal rights, made boarding a plane a real hassle, massive spending on 'homeland security' and wars, too much hate to this day by many to those of the Islamic faith or look 'middle eastern'. I won't forget, and we cannot.

I had a pilot today greet me on the phone with "9/11, never forget." Honestly, I had no idea what the most appropriate response to that is. It's not like wishing someone a "Happy Anniversary" or a "Happy birthday," especially since I did not know this pilot well and her exact level of remembrance and identification for that day (i.e. did she lose a family member or a close friend - did she know one or more of the crewmembers on one of the flights?).

What is the best way to respond to a stranger who is grieving for the day more than others?

It will all fade into history as everything does. The real question is will there be anyone left to read about this tragic episode in the future?

WarRI1 wrote:

It will all fade into history as everything does. The real question is will there be anyone left to read about this tragic episode in the future?

As time goes on people's memories will fade, but the lasting results will go on.

Currently at 16 years in, for the general population, the memory and pain is there, but it has been supplanted by other priorities. I have friends that have birthdays and anniversary's on 9/11. Those days to them are days for celebration and joy.
For those who lost loved ones in such a senseless attack, or were present, the feelings are very raw. I know of people that were in the building where the plane hit, and for them they live it every single day.

Life goes on though, and while we should remember the past, we can't expect it to take priority every year for everyone.

I was raised on the West Coast. At that time, I was going through some pretty heavy stuff and, to be honest, I don't really remember much of anything for about eight or nine months. I remember not being able to go to the one spot at PDX where my father treated me like a person. The only other change I have seen is large swaths of the country going from "are Muslims a thing in the United States?" to sheer hatred of every last one of them.

seb146 wrote:

large swaths of the country going from "are Muslims a thing in the United States?" to sheer hatred of every last one of them.

That's overstated. It's true that those people exist, but to assign them to be "large swaths" of the country gives the wrong impression to any reader who doesn't have actual experience here. The few who carry visceral hatred are usually exceptions within the communities where they live. There are a great many who voted for Trump who like the exciting rhetoric but practice a live and let live attitude in their personal life. They have friends who are black and so on. The same with the people from the ME.

An American who is an identifiable Muslim does have to consider the possibility of an encounter with one of these jerks; but then again, you or I also have to pay attention if we come into contact with one of these highly charged dimwits, they are a big part of the faction that gets involved in road rage situations and so forth. The US isn't exceptionally violent on the whole. One has to keep their eyes open wherever you are, even in Europe or Asia, Latin America or Africa you have to keep your eyes open. Then there's Russia, I hear that's a tough guy's haven, but I've never been there.

If you see it differently, please explain.

salttee wrote:

seb146 wrote:

large swaths of the country going from "are Muslims a thing in the United States?" to sheer hatred of every last one of them.

That's overstated. It's true that those people exist, but to assign them to be "large swaths" of the country gives the wrong impression to any reader who doesn't have actual experience here. The few who carry visceral hatred are usually exceptions within the communities where they live. There are a great many who voted for Trump who like the exciting rhetoric but practice a live and let live attitude in their personal life. They have friends who are black and so on. The same with the people from the ME.

An American who is an identifiable Muslim does have to consider the possibility of an encounter with one of these jerks; but then again, you or I also have to pay attention if we come into contact with one of these highly charged dimwits, they are a big part of the faction that gets involved in road rage situations and so forth. The US isn't exceptionally violent on the whole. One has to keep their eyes open wherever you are, even in Europe or Asia, Latin America or Africa you have to keep your eyes open. Then there's Russia, I hear that's a tough guy's haven, but I've never been there.

If you see it differently, please explain.

The guy in Portland who stabbed a couple of people because they are Muslim and the comments on MSM sites about how the Muslims deserved it and "go back home" and such. People wanting to ban burqas because they are seen as a threat. People demanding everyone speak English. People on this board and across America demand nothing less than a total and complete apology from every single Muslim for every transgression done by anyone in the name of Islam. Maybe being called names all my life and being passive-aggressively threatened by so-called "friends" because I might be gay may have something to do with my cynical nature.

seb146 wrote:

my cynical nature.

You see that as cynicism eh.

There are plenty of Muslim Americans who don't have the same fears as you, or bitterness or cynicism or whatever.. They get along in American society just fine. Look around, it's going on everywhere in the US.

Have you read about the Holly Bobo murder? What a tragedy eh? How much of each day should be spent on these things?

catiii wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

"mass murder of historic proportions" don't go there, please don't compare this terrorist attack to something else.

Huh? What else is it?

It's a statistical blip.

Kiwirob wrote:

catiii wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

"mass murder of historic proportions" don't go there, please don't compare this terrorist attack to something else.

Huh? What else is it?

It's a statistical blip.

Yes, in the great scheme of things, history will barely note this incident. But for people whom have lost people close to them, it is different. And it did mark a turning point in recent history. Afghanistan is a direct result of it, the world and NATO came together to get rid of the Taliban and Al Qaida. And America launched the invasion of Iraq, the terrorist attacks of September 9th, 2001 were cited as a reason for this (and later the non-existent WMD), which lead to the creation of IS, which led to inspiration or even help to terrorist attacks in Europe and elsewhere. So it did set in motion a chain of events.

I don't think you need to pour salt in anyone's wound at this point, Rob. Catiii should not call it 'historic proportions' and the wound is too fresh for some to call it a statistical blip. It is a terrible terrorist attack.

what happened after is the real tragedy.

Looks like its time to leave Syria. It was fun while it lasted..
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syr ... 33966.html

seb146 wrote:

salttee wrote:

seb146 wrote:

large swaths of the country going from "are Muslims a thing in the United States?" to sheer hatred of every last one of them.

That's overstated. It's true that those people exist, but to assign them to be "large swaths" of the country gives the wrong impression to any reader who doesn't have actual experience here. The few who carry visceral hatred are usually exceptions within the communities where they live. There are a great many who voted for Trump who like the exciting rhetoric but practice a live and let live attitude in their personal life. They have friends who are black and so on. The same with the people from the ME.

An American who is an identifiable Muslim does have to consider the possibility of an encounter with one of these jerks; but then again, you or I also have to pay attention if we come into contact with one of these highly charged dimwits, they are a big part of the faction that gets involved in road rage situations and so forth. The US isn't exceptionally violent on the whole. One has to keep their eyes open wherever you are, even in Europe or Asia, Latin America or Africa you have to keep your eyes open. Then there's Russia, I hear that's a tough guy's haven, but I've never been there.

If you see it differently, please explain.

The guy in Portland who stabbed a couple of people because they are Muslim and the comments on MSM sites about how the Muslims deserved it and "go back home" and such. People wanting to ban burqas because they are seen as a threat. People demanding everyone speak English. People on this board and across America demand nothing less than a total and complete apology from every single Muslim for every transgression done by anyone in the name of Islam. Maybe being called names all my life and being passive-aggressively threatened by so-called "friends" because I might be gay may have something to do with my cynical nature.

Can you put a number on how many people 'large swathes' consists of?

MrHMSH wrote:

seb146 wrote:

salttee wrote:

That's overstated. It's true that those people exist, but to assign them to be "large swaths" of the country gives the wrong impression to any reader who doesn't have actual experience here. The few who carry visceral hatred are usually exceptions within the communities where they live. There are a great many who voted for Trump who like the exciting rhetoric but practice a live and let live attitude in their personal life. They have friends who are black and so on. The same with the people from the ME.

An American who is an identifiable Muslim does have to consider the possibility of an encounter with one of these jerks; but then again, you or I also have to pay attention if we come into contact with one of these highly charged dimwits, they are a big part of the faction that gets involved in road rage situations and so forth. The US isn't exceptionally violent on the whole. One has to keep their eyes open wherever you are, even in Europe or Asia, Latin America or Africa you have to keep your eyes open. Then there's Russia, I hear that's a tough guy's haven, but I've never been there.

If you see it differently, please explain.

The guy in Portland who stabbed a couple of people because they are Muslim and the comments on MSM sites about how the Muslims deserved it and "go back home" and such. People wanting to ban burqas because they are seen as a threat. People demanding everyone speak English. People on this board and across America demand nothing less than a total and complete apology from every single Muslim for every transgression done by anyone in the name of Islam. Maybe being called names all my life and being passive-aggressively threatened by so-called "friends" because I might be gay may have something to do with my cynical nature.

Can you put a number on how many people 'large swathes' consists of?

Certainly a significant portion of the millions who voted the current trash into the White House. It was part of his platform to discriminate against Muslims.

“calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”

mad99 wrote:

what happened after is the real tragedy.

Looks like its time to leave Syria. It was fun while it lasted..
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syr ... 33966.html

For once the chance for an end of horrors and not the continuation of endless horror.

Some countries never (re)built a civilization.
So they have no idea how difficult and costly that is
... and busily destroy them on a whim and for minor gains if any.

bgm wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

seb146 wrote:

The guy in Portland who stabbed a couple of people because they are Muslim and the comments on MSM sites about how the Muslims deserved it and "go back home" and such. People wanting to ban burqas because they are seen as a threat. People demanding everyone speak English. People on this board and across America demand nothing less than a total and complete apology from every single Muslim for every transgression done by anyone in the name of Islam. Maybe being called names all my life and being passive-aggressively threatened by so-called "friends" because I might be gay may have something to do with my cynical nature.

Can you put a number on how many people 'large swathes' consists of?

Certainly a significant portion of the millions who voted the current trash into the White House. It was part of his platform to discriminate against Muslims.

“calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what the hell is going on.”

Not a number, but OK.

While I'm not one to deny the abuse and discrimination Muslims in the USA receive, especially post 9/11, I think you're overestimating it a little.

Also I'm not sure you know this, but your president does talk a load of bollocks.

MrHMSH wrote:

Also I'm not sure you know this, but your president does talk a load of bollocks.

The problem is when that "load of bollocks" is taken as approval to follow through. Then when something happens because of that "load of bollocks" the excuse is "Oh, he was just joking. You can't take him literally unless he is meant to be".

Remember, the same guy you claim talks "a load of bollocks" led a crusade against Obama for years about his birth place and then denied ever doing so. The result? A small, but persistent, vocal minority that grew paranoid over the black guy with the Muslim name, blaming him for every misfortune they faced, denying him credit when he deserved it, and questioning his citizenship, morals, and patriotism because he was all inclusive.

einsteinboricua wrote:

MrHMSH wrote:

Also I'm not sure you know this, but your president does talk a load of bollocks.

The problem is when that "load of bollocks" is taken as approval to follow through. Then when something happens because of that "load of bollocks" the excuse is "Oh, he was just joking. You can't take him literally unless he is meant to be".

Remember, the same guy you claim talks "a load of bollocks" led a crusade against Obama for years about his birth place and then denied ever doing so. The result? A small, but persistent, vocal minority that grew paranoid over the black guy with the Muslim name, blaming him for every misfortune they faced, denying him credit when he deserved it, and questioning his citizenship, morals, and patriotism because he was all inclusive.

I don't see what you disagree with, I know he's a hypocrite and a liar, hence 'load of bollocks'. That some people are stupid enough to believe him is very worrying, but that is a problem with several electorates right now, as we tend to not teach people how to think, rather what to think, so a showman like Trump can get away with so much.

But going back to the original point, I don't think the anti-Muslim rhetoric is as bad with the population as made out, albeit it's not exactly fluffy and friendly, and the media is not friendly either. That said, Trump hasn't made it much worse, the rhetoric was there long before he came in.

WIederling wrote:

mad99 wrote:

what happened after is the real tragedy.

Looks like its time to leave Syria. It was fun while it lasted..
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/syr ... 33966.html

For once the chance for an end of horrors and not the continuation of endless horror.

Some countries never (re)built a civilization.
So they have no idea how difficult and costly that is
... and busily destroy them on a whim and for minor gains if any.

You do know where Mesopotamia is, right?