Kiwirob wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I’d like to see you prove this. Even in NZ you can play all the major sports popular in the US if you want to.

Yeah, you can play them but its not good. The population just can't support the quantity or quality of sports like the USA can. We just have more bodies. Doesn't mean one is "better" but to compare the sporting world in virtually any country to the USA is crazy.

You're just proving your ignorance yet again. So you're saying it's only good if it's played in America? I can think of plenty of sports were you won't find quality games played in the US which are played elsewhere. And the big 3 US sports, basketball, baseball and NFL, there are strong basketball and baseball leagues outside the US, nobody is really interested in NFL as it's stupid game which takes far too long, is devoid of actual game time which makes it unwatchable live, it's been killed by formatting it to fit tv advertising revenue.

That is one point about this whole National Anthem debate: The NFL is made for the television market. Outside Super Bowl, everyone around the world watches on TV. No one pays respect to the National Anthem when they watch on TV. No one. No one outside the United States "gets it" except maybe Canada, and, even then, it is just the fundamentals. Even with that weird 55 yard mid field line....

AA747123 wrote:

I dont think it goes far enough. If you are a member of the team, you will come out and stand at attention with your hand over your heart during the national anthem PERIOD! If you don't YOUR FIRED! Period!

Trump does you one better. He says player who kneel shouldn't be in the USA.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/tr ... smsnnews11

In the past the version of US football was, if you understood it, fairly interesting. But for some years now I have stopped watching, even the final itself. I feel the sport has been dissected and laboratory engineered to the point it is sterile, has no spontaneity, and all games and venues look exactly like all other games and venues, there is no folklore, no color. The game itself was formatted to death for maximum add revenues. The actual way the sport is played is fundamentally flawed too: you have so many specialist positions now that there is no all-around athlete except for maybe the quarterback, which is why he can be killed by some dude who can just train to be 150 kilos and sprint at 20 km/ph for 3 or 4 seconds, in full armor, and then you wonder why so many of the most entertaining players go out for the year with injuries. No way an athlete that needs many skill sets can compete against 5 specialists whose sole job and body training is trying to get to him.

Ultimately I think the sport will go the way of Boxing, still around and occasionally big news, but moribund in most other ways with average people. Unless they somehow address all of the above.

Derico wrote:

I
Ultimately I think the sport will go the way of Boxing, still around and occasionally big news, but moribund in most other ways with average people. Unless they somehow address all of the above.

The decline of interest of young men wanting to go into American football due to risks (especially head injuries), many smaller high schools and communites (for pre-HS football) who cannot afford the costs to run football programs, costs of future brain injury lawsuits, and more from countries where soccer is a big sport, are factors too in the likely decline of American Football.

tommy1808 wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I’d like to see you prove this. Even in NZ you can play all the major sports popular in the US if you want to.

Yeah, you can play them but its not good. The population just can't support the quantity or quality of sports like the USA can. We just have more bodies. Doesn't mean one is "better" but to compare the sporting world in virtually any country to the USA is crazy.

Olympic medals per per million citizens today since 1906, sorted by number of total medals:

USA: 7.76
Russia (including USSR): 10.88
Germany (all 6 incarnations): 16.45
Great Britain: 13.01
PRC: 0.4
France: 10.7
Italy: 9.61
Hungary: 49.1
Australia: 21.21
Sweden: 49.9
Japan: 3.46
Finland: 55.1
South Korea: 5.23
Romania: 15.3
Netherlands: 16.76
Cuba: 19.4
Poland: 7.45
Czech Republic:19.22
Canada: 8.36
Norway: 29.42

Winter Olympic medals per per million citizens today:

Germany: 4.97
Russia: 2.45
Norway: 70.77 (!)
USA: 0.941
Canada: 5.48
Austria: 26.67
Sweden: 15.96

Outside of sports that are practically only really played in the US, the US does not seem to perform all that great.

And what the heck, Thor really seems to get involved in those games and shows Jahwe how it is done!

best regards
Thomas

I was talking about the quality and quantity of sporting events available. Of course small countries with one or two metals will have "more successful" Olympics but that's just being disingenuous. There's hundreds and hundreds of leagues of every kind all over the USA. NZ and other small countries might have one small league of a handful of teams with a small pool of talent. In the USA you have dozens of teams in leagues all over the country in every sport imaginable.

Kiwirob wrote:

CCGPV wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

I’d like to see you prove this. Even in NZ you can play all the major sports popular in the US if you want to.

Yeah, you can play them but its not good. The population just can't support the quantity or quality of sports like the USA can. We just have more bodies. Doesn't mean one is "better" but to compare the sporting world in virtually any country to the USA is crazy.

You're just proving your ignorance yet again. So you're saying it's only good if it's played in America? I can think of plenty of sports were you won't find quality games played in the US which are played elsewhere. And the big 3 US sports, basketball, baseball and NFL, there are strong basketball and baseball leagues outside the US, nobody is really interested in NFL as it's stupid game which takes far too long, is devoid of actual game time which makes it unwatchable live, it's been killed by formatting it to fit tv advertising revenue.

No, silly. Did you even read my post? I said its not intrinsically better because they are American- we have a larger pool of talent and quantity of sports due to that.

I'm saying due to our population size we have a larger pool of talent and therefore a more healthy and varied sporting culture than smaller countries like New Zealand. If you want to have access to a more varied and talented pool of sporting events the USA is going to dominate in just about every one. We just have more people. Soccer and cricket notwithstanding, but we still have a healthy amount of players in those. That's why you see so many international collegiate and professional athletes coming to the USA vs moving to Bolivia or New Zealand to run track or play hockey or soccer.

Of course other nations have much better athletes in lots of different fields but if you are a a moderately successful performer or are in university, or at the top of your game there's no other place where you can have the opportunity or ability to experience and practice your craft with the exception of top tier cricket or soccer. And we're developing soccer much more year over year.

Ok so where is the quality football, rugby union, rugby league, field hockey, Australian football league, handball, jetsprinting, biathalon, alhletics, there’s so many sports where you get quality events outside the US and which the US barely rates a mention in.

dragon-wings wrote:

AA747123 wrote:

I dont think it goes far enough. If you are a member of the team, you will come out and stand at attention with your hand over your heart during the national anthem PERIOD! If you don't YOUR FIRED! Period!

Trump does you one better. He says player who kneel shouldn't be in the USA.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/tr ... smsnnews11

It's probably imminent that he just calls them the n word and tells them to go back to Africa. You know he wants to.

What a weird pissing contest we've started regarding "who has the most sports". I am not sure where olympic medals come into the picture but I am sure some will just say since I am in the USA I am trying to ignore something unfavorable to the USA but I am not. I am just not seeing that being what the original question and response were about. I could very well be wrong. I also don't think the statement of the USA having more sports than any other nation was intended as a throw down or in disrespect of any other nation and their sports. I just see it as one of pure volume but again I agree there are many, many metrics one could go by and we haven't agreed on anything specific to measure with (and I doubt we could). If anything people could just post various metrics, such as olympic medal count per capita, and not go any further to say "you aren't as good". But we love saying that so....

As to volume of sports, in the USA there are probably more than 10,000 organized/official games played every single weekend here is the USA. I will try to see what I can find to support this but the simple basis is that every weekend in most towns there are at least a few to many hundreds of games played for sports leagues, from college (with some 500 schools that have organized, sanctioned sports leagues competing against other schools), to high school, to Jr. leagues, to communities sports organizations, to beer leagues. etc.

And this spans all sports: softball, baseball, basketball, hockey, soccer, kickball, american football, rugby, australian rules football, lacrosse, field hockey, cheer, polo, water polo, track and field, volleyball, sandlot volleyball, badminton, tennis, table tennis/ping pong, racquet ball, golf, BMX racing, cycling, motocross, dirt track racing, auto racing, motorcycle racing, horse racing, golf, frisbee golf, archery, chess, judo, karate, kung fu, taekwondo, MMA, fencing, drone races, sailing, rowing/skulling, target shooting, air races, road rallying, roller derby, etc.

And these are the competitive sports, and just some of those, not all activities that can be considered sports. And I certainly do not want people to think I am implying sports that aren't "big" in the USA aren't equally fun and competitive or important.
Everyone loves sports.

It certainly is an interesting topic though. I would love a thread to capture these and more that people do and that are unique to various nations etc.

Tugg

Kiwirob wrote:

Ok so where is the quality football, rugby union, rugby league, field hockey, Australian football league, handball, jetsprinting, biathalon, alhletics, there’s so many sports where you get quality events outside the US and which the US barely rates a mention in.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... th_America
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_s ... ted_States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Rugby_League
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... all_League

Can't find a wiki for field hockey but I know we have many Jr. and high school teams here in my town and they play across the state for championships. Professional league wise they are not many if any but quite a few colleges have competitive team leagues.


Anyway, this is kind of fun and interesting to see how many things there are to do.

Tugg

The NFL owners did a really dumb thing by making a rule - this was a situation that was pretty much passe' and now they've brought it front and center again. How hard is it to picture players making an issue of it anew now that their behavior is mandated? Now they will test the owners' resolve and make a show of it on week one. The term "let a sleeping dog lie" seems appropriate here.
It's just one more idiotic thing the owners have done - the game is no longer half as enjoyable as it once was - so many reasons why - others have stated them in various posts earlier. The endless TV timeouts, the excessive penalty calls, the absurdly long time it takes a replay challenge to be reviewed and decided, the indecision about when it is and isn't a fumble, a catch etc.

As for the whole national anthem thing - if I'm at a game I stand, that's my choice. But if the guy in the seat next to me wants to stay seated, lay down, do cartwheels, go buy a beer or go to the loo, I couldn't care less. Ditto for the players - I came to watch them play the game, what they do before or after doesn't interest me

This has popped up in my social media feed a few times today

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/5 ... n-t-salute

January 1934, a German football club failed to give the Nazi salute and were banned for one year.

ER757 wrote:

The NFL owners did a really dumb thing by making a rule - this was a situation that was pretty much passe' and now they've brought it front and center again. How hard is it to picture players making an issue of it anew now that their behavior is mandated? Now they will test the owners' resolve and make a show of it on week one. The term "let a sleeping dog lie" seems appropriate here.
It's just one more idiotic thing the owners have done - the game is no longer half as enjoyable as it once was - so many reasons why - others have stated them in various posts earlier. The endless TV timeouts, the excessive penalty calls, the absurdly long time it takes a replay challenge to be reviewed and decided, the indecision about when it is and isn't a fumble, a catch etc.

As for the whole national anthem thing - if I'm at a game I stand, that's my choice. But if the guy in the seat next to me wants to stay seated, lay down, do cartwheels, go buy a beer or go to the loo, I couldn't care less. Ditto for the players - I came to watch them play the game, what they do before or after doesn't interest me

I agree with your whole post. I honestly cannot believe that we have to listen to this debate all over again.

Tugg

MaverickM11 wrote:

dragon-wings wrote:

AA747123 wrote:

I dont think it goes far enough. If you are a member of the team, you will come out and stand at attention with your hand over your heart during the national anthem PERIOD! If you don't YOUR FIRED! Period!

Trump does you one better. He says player who kneel shouldn't be in the USA.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/tr ... smsnnews11

It's probably imminent that he just calls them the n word and tells them to go back to Africa. You know he wants to.

...and you know he does, it'd give Trump Lovers the Boner-on they're itching for...

BN747

Derico wrote:

In the past the version of US football was, if you understood it, fairly interesting. But for some years now I have stopped watching, even the final itself. I feel the sport has been dissected and laboratory engineered to the point it is sterile, has no spontaneity, and all games and venues look exactly like all other games and venues, there is no folklore, no color. The game itself was formatted to death for maximum add revenues. The actual way the sport is played is fundamentally flawed too: you have so many specialist positions now that there is no all-around athlete except for maybe the quarterback, which is why he can be killed by some dude who can just train to be 150 kilos and sprint at 20 km/ph for 3 or 4 seconds, in full armor, and then you wonder why so many of the most entertaining players go out for the year with injuries. No way an athlete that needs many skill sets can compete against 5 specialists whose sole job and body training is trying to get to him.

Ultimately I think the sport will go the way of Boxing, still around and occasionally big news, but moribund in most other ways with average people. Unless they somehow address all of the above.

The NFL will be around for some time but it has hit it's ceiling and has minimal global appeal just simply because there are more liked alternatives across the globe such as rugby league, rugby union and the AFL, all similar games with a much faster pace of play.

It also has self inflicted scandals like this one and a half dozen others, has taken replay too far and you are not going to have the same pool of players in the coming generations because of all of the concussion and CTE issues and those whom have a talent to be an NFL star probably can pick up another sport. I still watch the NFL but only really if I have nothing else to do on a Sunday.

The true global sport in North America is basketball as the NBA has huge global appeal. I talk to people in Europe and Africa who know more about the NBA than I do.
Baseball and hockey have more global appeal in certain regions (hockey in Europe and baseball in Asia and Latin America)

The new Anthem rules will indeed affect this season. It would have been much better off to leave the former rules, in since 1968 to ban protests then as to the Vietnam War. But the noise made by a significant proportion of White fans, issues with revenues, TV ratings, a big mouthed President and other politicians, forced them to make this change. I bet if they left the old rules in place, maybe took some lessons from the NBA and back Black players subject to police harassment and threats to their lives, there would be no protests next season.

I would also note other issues of far more importance and how the Anthem policy may change along with other rules changes could cause issues for massive legal sports gambling. A recent US Supreme Court decision will now allow all states to have legalized betting on sports. Currently sports gambling is only allowed for Horse Racing in almost all states, Jal-lai in 2 states and for all sports in Nevada and 3 other states. For decades most gambling on sports, unlike in the UK for example, has been banned by federal law or was with criminal organizations. States will be wanting to legalize almost all sports betting for badly needed tax revenues, investors in states to operate sports books seeking profits, but the NFL and other professional and college leagues have been against it out of fears of corruption and fixing (as sometimes an issue in college basketball, what is Football outside the USA). The NFL has specialized persons who follow the Las Vegas sport books, require disclosures of injured players and other issues to assure the betting odds are legit. New rules as to Kickoff returns, tackling, ever changing replay rules and others are untested and could affect odds and gambling results.

mbmbos wrote:

I've noticed a few of you getting legalistic about employee rights. Indeed, if you want to split hairs, NFL players must adhere to their contracts.

But how narrow minded of you who make that argument! These men are making a silent and respectful protest that Black Lives Matter. Why is that offensive to anyone? Oh yeah, right, I remember. Some people pound their chests and declare they are more patriotic than others. That not standing for the National Anthem is unpatriotic. And it disrespects our troops. Huh? How does it disrespect our troops? Oh, right, now I remember. Those on the right want to be injured by players taking a knee, so they have to dream up something. So suddenly the National Anthem is all about our troops, not about how our nation was born. So not standing means you hate America and you hate our troops.

Which men? The standing at attention for the flag and national anthem was started by Carl Eller and Bud Grant to pay respect to fallen soldiers during Vietnam... including a probably disproportionate number of African American soldiers sent to Vietnam against their will... essentially a protest to show that Black lives matter.

Now refusing to stand for those fallen soldiers sends a message that black lives matter?! One has to admit this is a little confusing. If we can’t agree on allegiance to the US flag, what prospect would we have to advance the rights of African Americans? I would expect racist skinheads to refuse to stand at attention for the US flag. To say it advances BLM agenda is frankly mind boggling. If you don’t like America it’s simple, give back your jersey and get another job, maybe in another country.

Flighty wrote:

mbmbos wrote:

I've noticed a few of you getting legalistic about employee rights. Indeed, if you want to split hairs, NFL players must adhere to their contracts.

But how narrow minded of you who make that argument! These men are making a silent and respectful protest that Black Lives Matter. Why is that offensive to anyone? Oh yeah, right, I remember. Some people pound their chests and declare they are more patriotic than others. That not standing for the National Anthem is unpatriotic. And it disrespects our troops. Huh? How does it disrespect our troops? Oh, right, now I remember. Those on the right want to be injured by players taking a knee, so they have to dream up something. So suddenly the National Anthem is all about our troops, not about how our nation was born. So not standing means you hate America and you hate our troops.

Which men? The standing at attention for the flag and national anthem was started by Carl Eller and Bud Grant to pay respect to fallen soldiers during Vietnam... including a probably disproportionate number of African American soldiers sent to Vietnam against their will... essentially a protest to show that Black lives matter.

Now refusing to stand for those fallen soldiers sends a message that black lives matter?! One has to admit this is a little confusing. If we can’t agree on allegiance to the US flag, what prospect would we have to advance the rights of African Americans? I would expect racist skinheads to refuse to stand at attention for the US flag. To say it advances BLM agenda is frankly mind boggling. If you don’t like America it’s simple, give back your jersey and get another job, maybe in another country.

Calm down, Donnie.

You are saying that forcing people to be patriotic, going against their First Amendment Rights, is fine, as long as it goes against BLM or is for war? I am confused as to your agenda. Do you like Americans and freedom or don't you?

Flighty wrote:

mbmbos wrote:

I've noticed a few of you getting legalistic about employee rights. Indeed, if you want to split hairs, NFL players must adhere to their contracts.

But how narrow minded of you who make that argument! These men are making a silent and respectful protest that Black Lives Matter. Why is that offensive to anyone? Oh yeah, right, I remember. Some people pound their chests and declare they are more patriotic than others. That not standing for the National Anthem is unpatriotic. And it disrespects our troops. Huh? How does it disrespect our troops? Oh, right, now I remember. Those on the right want to be injured by players taking a knee, so they have to dream up something. So suddenly the National Anthem is all about our troops, not about how our nation was born. So not standing means you hate America and you hate our troops.

Which men? The standing at attention for the flag and national anthem was started by Carl Eller and Bud Grant to pay respect to fallen soldiers during Vietnam... including a probably disproportionate number of African American soldiers sent to Vietnam against their will... essentially a protest to show that Black lives matter.

Now refusing to stand for those fallen soldiers sends a message that black lives matter?! One has to admit this is a little confusing. If we can’t agree on allegiance to the US flag, what prospect would we have to advance the rights of African Americans? I would expect racist skinheads to refuse to stand at attention for the US flag. To say it advances BLM agenda is frankly mind boggling. If you don’t like America it’s simple, give back your jersey and get another job, maybe in another country.

The National Anthem is about honoring our fallen soldiers? Since when? Who determined that?

Actually, this is the most amusing part of the whole thing - the strain and effort some bigots go to in order to be offended by kneeling during the anthem. "They're disrespecting the troops!" or "They're disrespecting fallen soldiers!"

It's our national anthem. It's a celebration of the birth of our nation. It's not about honoring our troops.

But in order to find injury from athletes who respectfully kneel in protest, they have to create a victim.

What hollow outrage.