Not on here as well! I'm totally wombed out. I am sick to death of the endless coverage of this referendum: you would think nothing else was happening in the world. ! My polling card went straight into the recycling bin as soon as it arrived.

I thought it was going to be a lot closer but I guess not. Great to see the Catholic church less relevant.

Braybuddy wrote:

:banghead: Not on here as well! I'm totally wombed out. I am sick to death of the endless coverage of this referendum: you would think nothing else was happening in the world. ! My polling card went straight into the recycling bin as soon as it arrived.

Just out of curiosity, why did you not vote?

Braybuddy wrote:

:banghead: Not on here as well! I'm totally wombed out. I am sick to death of the endless coverage of this referendum: you would think nothing else was happening in the world. ! My polling card went straight into the recycling bin as soon as it arrived.

It's not like the thread title was ambiguous; why did you click?

bgm wrote:

Just out of curiosity, why did you not vote?

I couldn't vote with the No side, and the Yes side irritated me with their sactimonius lecturing. Anyway, it's primarily a women's issue, so I baled out.

Airstud wrote:

It's not like the thread title was ambiguous; why did you click?

True. I've maintained radio silence for the day, which is unusual for me. I've been seeking refuge in reading, and on here . . . . or so I thought! It was like a red rag to a bull when I saw the thread. I should've been above it . . .

i had no idea, , Ireland was until today in the dark ages. Seriously, i wonder how many woman died having coat hanger abortions.

MaverickM11 wrote:

I thought it was going to be a lot closer but I guess not. Great to see the Catholic church less relevant.

Agree. Abortion is a lefty trait. Rather than take responsibility for actions, it's easier to make life dispensible when it causes an inconvenience.

Not a bad thing though, the less lefties brought into the world, the better. Well played Eire.

Braybuddy wrote:

I should've been above it . . .

It's all good, we've all done it. Actually I can only imagine how annoying it must have been. The thing is a war between the self-righteous and the sanctimonious.

Tugg

Freakysh wrote:

a lefty trait. [...]take responsibility for actions,

I agree this is one way for women to take responsibility for actions. Unlike some that just talk and blame others and force women into situations that no one should be forced into.

No one "wants" abortion, it is a terrible choice. But one that people need available none the less because no matter what it will occur, it should be safe and rare and available.

Tugg

Tugger wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

a lefty trait. [...]take responsibility for actions,

I agree this is one way for women to take responsibility for actions. Unlike some that just talk and blame others and force women into situations that no one should be forced into.

No one "wants" abortion, it is a terrible choice. But one that people need available none the less because no matter what it will occur, it should be safe and rare and available.

Tugg

Apart from the actions of rape, or medical issues, what situation are women "forced" into?

Freakysh wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

I thought it was going to be a lot closer but I guess not. Great to see the Catholic church less relevant.

Agree. Abortion is a lefty trait. Rather than take responsibility for actions, it's easier to make life dispensible when it causes an inconvenience.

Not a bad thing though, the less lefties brought into the world, the better. Well played Eire.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only Freakysh could be self-righteous about abortion, and then ... encourage it!

Only good leftie is a dead leftie, eh?

Freakysh wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

a lefty trait. [...]take responsibility for actions,

I agree this is one way for women to take responsibility for actions. Unlike some that just talk and blame others and force women into situations that no one should be forced into.

No one "wants" abortion, it is a terrible choice. But one that people need available none the less because no matter what it will occur, it should be safe and rare and available.

Tugg

Apart from the actions of rape, or medical issues, what situation are women "forced" into?

Here’s some Freakysh transparency again ... describing more than half of the human population as if they were pets!

Please, future world, SIGN UP WITH THIS GUY!!!!! Freakysh is our future!!!!! He’s got it all figured out, and I have no doubt his view of the world will work out well. At the end of the day, when you think about it, the real problem is that more men like Freakysh have been muzzled for so long for not being able to speak their true beliefs without consequence. I’m glad this grave injustice will soon be corrected.

Most likely the new laws will mean most abortions can be done before the 12th week and up to the 20th week for the most extreme reason, mainly to save the life of the mother. There have been several horror stories of women who couldn't get a legal abortion in Ireland and died or their health ruined by a continued pregnancy.

While a limited right of access to abortion will be legal in the Republic of Ireland, there will be a number of practical issues. There may be the right of a doctor or pharmacist or Catholic controlled hospitals to refuse to do any abortion or process prescriptions for 'Plan B' abortion drugs.There could be costly and anti-abortion mandates such as attempted in the USA states, of requiring seeing sonograms of their wombs showing a forming human life inside them, multiple visits, pressure from 'pregnancy crises centers' to strongly encourage bearing the child for adoption (which has a horrible history in Ireland well into recent decades).

We also have to recognize that most abortions are not about rape/incest/save life of the mother, but about failed birth control, relationships that fail upon becoming pregnant, lack of economic security, physical or mental health problems, issues with employment or career advancement or can't continue with their college/university education.

In this referendum there was financial and practical support for no by 'religious' persons in the USA who sincerely believe abortions are murder, and to do anything to prevent them is to assure a place in the mythical heaven afterlife they believe in.

Yes, I understand the deep moral issues of abortion, but there are moral issues of forcing a woman to die or bear a child they cannot financially or emotionally support, or extort them to produce children for adoption by 'good christian parents' who cannot conceive, especially White children. The change in abortion law in Ireland shouldn't be celebrated, but quietly acknowledged for the limited intent and conditions that push women to have one.

Freakysh wrote:

Tugger wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

a lefty trait. [...]take responsibility for actions,

I agree this is one way for women to take responsibility for actions. Unlike some that just talk and blame others and force women into situations that no one should be forced into.

No one "wants" abortion, it is a terrible choice. But one that people need available none the less because no matter what it will occur, it should be safe and rare and available.

Tugg

Apart from the actions of rape, or medical issues, what situation are women "forced" into?

Stop. If you're willing to make exceptions, you're not really pro life.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

Tugger wrote:

I agree this is one way for women to take responsibility for actions. Unlike some that just talk and blame others and force women into situations that no one should be forced into.

No one "wants" abortion, it is a terrible choice. But one that people need available none the less because no matter what it will occur, it should be safe and rare and available.

Tugg

Apart from the actions of rape, or medical issues, what situation are women "forced" into?

Stop. If you're willing to make exceptions, you're not really pro life.

OK DSK (ha! The irony is superb!) is on the record as saying if our sisters or mothers are raped the role of government is to force them to have it.

DLFREEBIRD wrote:

i had no idea, , Ireland was until today in the dark ages. Seriously, i wonder how many woman died having coat hanger abortions.

Probably none, they went across the border to the UK or ordered termination pills from the internet.

jetero wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

I thought it was going to be a lot closer but I guess not. Great to see the Catholic church less relevant.

Agree. Abortion is a lefty trait. Rather than take responsibility for actions, it's easier to make life dispensible when it causes an inconvenience.

Not a bad thing though, the less lefties brought into the world, the better. Well played Eire.

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only Freakysh could be self-righteous about abortion, and then ... encourage it!

Only good leftie is a dead leftie, eh?

I'm a glass half full kinda guy.

If we are going to make it mainstream and something you can order with your chai latte, then let's look at the positives of the situation.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

Tugger wrote:

I agree this is one way for women to take responsibility for actions. Unlike some that just talk and blame others and force women into situations that no one should be forced into.

No one "wants" abortion, it is a terrible choice. But one that people need available none the less because no matter what it will occur, it should be safe and rare and available.

Tugg

Apart from the actions of rape, or medical issues, what situation are women "forced" into?

Stop. If you're willing to make exceptions, you're not really pro life.

Never said I was "pro life" in the way you interpret it.

Should a woman impregnated by rape be forced to have a baby? I don't believe so.

Should a woman be forced to have a baby that has a guaranteed chances of fatality to mother or baby on medical grounds? I don't believe so.

I'm for pro choice. That includes the choice not to get pregnant if you know you aren't ready for a baby.

jetero wrote:

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

Apart from the actions of rape, or medical issues, what situation are women "forced" into?

Stop. If you're willing to make exceptions, you're not really pro life.

OK DSK (ha! The irony is superb!) is on the record as saying if our sisters or mothers are raped the role of government is to force them to have it.

Quite the opposite in fact. I'll never be anti choice (though I would agree that as someone who is neither a woman nor a doctor that I should never be able to vote on the matter); I'm just over the blatant falsehood of that stance.

To wit... If one is willing to say that they are 'pro-life' except in cases of rape or a few other carve outs, they're not really pro life. They just hate that women have a choice in the matter. If one is truly pro life, then in their universe, a fetus is a third party who is alive without regard to how it was conceived.

Freakysh wrote:

I'm for pro choice. That includes the choice not to get pregnant if you know you aren't ready for a baby.

Indeed that's the best choice.

But to say abortion shouldn't be available (except for some outlier male defined situations) is like saying cars shouldn't have airbags because it would be better if we just used brakes instead. Shit happens, and women need to have options that aren't catastrophic.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

I'm for pro choice. That includes the choice not to get pregnant if you know you aren't ready for a baby.

Indeed that's the best choice.

But to say abortion shouldn't be available (except for some outlier male defined situations) is like saying cars shouldn't have airbags because it would be better if we just used brakes instead. Shit happens, and women need to have options that aren't catastrophic.

Shit does happen, and you take responsibility, especially when it could have been avoided. What's catastrophic? Having the baby and that impacting on your regular Friday morning latte with your gym buddies?

Freakysh wrote:

What's catastrophic? Having the baby and that impacting on your regular Friday morning latte with your gym buddies?

I know better than to waste time trying to convince someone who's married to an opinion on anything, and this issue is no exception.

I'll just say that if you think the motives for having an abortion are that trivial, you'll never understand why anyone would be pro-choice.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:

Freakysh wrote:

What's catastrophic? Having the baby and that impacting on your regular Friday morning latte with your gym buddies?

I know better than to waste time trying to convince someone who's married to an opinion on anything, and this issue is no exception.

I'll just say that if you think the motives for having an abortion are that trivial, you'll never understand why anyone would be pro-choice.

Try me

Freakysh wrote:

I'm for pro choice. That includes the choice not to get pregnant if you know you aren't ready for a baby.

Are you willing to force the fathers into taking care of at 50%, plus some extra since he wasn't pregnant, of all child care and associated expenses until they qualify for a job, or is that only for women?

Pregnancies happen unscheduled, some times by stupidity, sometimes by lack of care in that moment or by bad luck. The number of women that get abortions as villi nilli as you decide they should be forced to carry to term will be very low.

When you are not ready for a baby, yet you still get pragnent, you shouldn't have the baby. By your own definition anyone wanting a abortion for no medical reasons is not ready to take care of the baby. Which leads to only one logical question:
Why do you hate kids so much?

Best regards
Thomas

Welcome to the 20th century, Ireland.

It was the right result but as others have said its not time for a massive party. It was a difficult issue.

tommy1808 wrote:

Are you willing to force the fathers into taking care of at 50%, plus some extra since he wasn't pregnant, of all child care and associated expenses until they qualify for a job, or is that only for women?

Yes, absolutely. I know it may be a controversial statement for this forum, but a man should act like a man in these situations.

tommy1808 wrote:

Pregnancies happen unscheduled, some times by stupidity, sometimes by lack of care in that moment or by bad luck. The number of women that get abortions as villi nilli as you decide they should be forced to carry to term will be very low.

I'm glad to hear that

tommy1808 wrote:

When you are not ready for a baby, yet you still get pragnent, you shouldn't have the baby. By your own definition anyone wanting a abortion for no medical reasons is not ready to take care of the baby. Which leads to only one logical question:
Why do you hate kids so much?

They are ready to take care of the baby. They just think they aren't, or are too selfish to admit it. Unfortunately the left is leading us down the path of "hey, if it's all too hard, don't worry, just quit"

Gone are the days of teaching perseverance, resolve and self sacrifice. Not to mention teaching responsibility.

tommy1808 wrote:

By your own definition anyone wanting a abortion for no medical reasons is not ready to take care of the baby. Which leads to only one logical question:
Why do you hate kids so much?

I'll try to slip myself inside the head of a 'Mhurican hard-lined conservative and answer the question:

"I choose to not acknowledge the varied and complex societal issues that lead to unwanted pregnancies, such as lack of access to education, poverty, hard-line Christian beliefs such as abstinence encroaching into effective sexual education and contraception, etc, and choose to assuage my anger and vindictive tendencies by punishing the mother and the progeny to a life of hardship even though they were only responsible for 50% and 0% respectively of the act of human creation."

How was that, am I in the ball park?

Francoflier wrote:

How was that, am I in the ball park?

Pretty good, including the lack of bible knowledge.
In the bible abortions are performed by priests and seem to be fine.

Best regards
Thomas

Francoflier wrote:

"I choose to not acknowledge the varied and complex societal issues that lead to unwanted pregnancies, such as lack of access to education, poverty, hard-line Christian beliefs such as abstinence encroaching into effective sexual education and contraception, etc, and choose to assuage my anger and vindictive tendencies by punishing the mother and the progeny to a life of hardship even though they were only responsible for 50% and 0% respectively of the act of human creation.

All those reasons for getting pregnant are true.

This doesn't automatically justify abortion.

Poverty isn't an excuse in western society. There is plenty of opportunity and support available.

I'm just hearing excuses for why it's all too hard. Typical of the left though, talk a tough game but are spineless when faced with adversity. Or equally likely is selfishness. Always banging on about rights for this group and that, but don't actually do anything themselves to help the less fortunate apart from virtue signal. End of the day number 1 is all that's important in world of left.

scbriml wrote:

I'm of the view that this was a vote from which men should have been precluded.

I don't think it's that simple, many times couples make the decision together. Irish writer Graham Linehan on Time:

In 2004, my wife Helen and I heard that the baby we dearly wanted would not survive longer than an hour after birth. She was 11 weeks into the pregnancy when we learned the fetus had a condition called acrania—meaning that the skull would not form properly around the brain. And because we were in England—rather than my home country of Ireland—we immediately requested a termination, and received one just a few days later.

Any man would have done the same. Unless of course, they lived in Ireland—where they would have to do far more. There, Helen would have been forced to carry the pregnancy to term, or face a 14-year prison sentence for procuring an illegal abortion.

http://time.com/5289848/graham-linehan- ... endum-men/

Very disappointed, and that's putting it mildly. Apparently, bacteria on Mars are life but something growing in a womb with its own heartbeat is not. Abortion is murder, there is just no way around it. If the baby is the result of rape or something silimar, a very early abortion might be a grey zone. I don't know the numbers from anywhere else, but in the US, "only" 1% of all abortions is due to rape, incest etc., most other abortions are because people are irresponsible. People like Cecile Richards, who claim there is a right for a woman to have an abortion, have cozy warm place in hell reserved for them. In the US last year, there was one abortion for every 5.8 live births. I can't believe the Irish want that for themselves, but apparently they do.

aviationaware wrote:

If the baby is the result of rape or something silimar, a very early abortion might be a grey zone.

...excuse me?

Just read the UK governments report on abortions in 2016.

97% of abortions were group C abortions.

Group C is due to mums mental health.

The other groups relate to mums physical well being (ie dying from the pregnancy, or the baby having gross physical deformities not compatible with a healthy life etc)

Basically the clear majority was because mum didn't want it for "mental health" reasons. One example given was excessive vomiting during pregnancy. So if you get pregnant and just couldn't be farked, tell the doc you are vomiting too much and it's detrimental to your mental health.

So keep your examples of brain defects in children coming, but I can assure you they make up less than 3% of abortion excuses.

People in the UK often bitch about 'health tourists', in reality they are few but there have been, since 1967 when the law was changed in the UK, a steady stream of girls and women from Ireland. Many from backgrounds where they have been raped/abused or have other issues that makes it harmful to bring a child into the world.
Then there was probably the catalyst for this vote, the death in 2012 of an Indian women in Ireland, who did not seek an abortion but the medical staff trying to treat serious problems in her pregnancy, were so constrained by the laws just voted against in this referendum, that she died.

I have some skin in this game, had the law passed in the UK become law just months before it did, I could well have been aborted, since I was an unplanned pregnancy, from as far as I know (not met my birth mother), a 17 year old in poverty, my birth father having done a runner as soon as he heard she was pregnant.
Instead I was lucky twice over, being adopted at 6 weeks old and brought up by loving parents. The other bit of good luck was that meant I did not end up in the care system.
But this in no way changes my view on a woman's right to choose.

Prior to 1967 in the UK, around 50 women/girls a year died due to being driven by desperation into back street abortions. Most of whom had little or no medical training to do these. That was the reality.
And I cannot help but notice how many of those who are so anti, in particular in the US, also love guns but hate social programs including those which help women with birth control, or pregnancy advise.

Which culminates in 'pro-lifers' killing people, doctors, and other medical staff.
Basically, in those cases, they hate women almost as much as ISIS does.

scbriml wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

If the baby is the result of rape or something silimar, a very early abortion might be a grey zone.

Grey zone? Grey zone??? If that view wasn't so outrageous it would be hilarious.

Oh, excuse me. Yea, you are perfectly right. An abortion because of rape is something to be celebrated. In fact, why don't we all rape or get raped (hey, the UK is on a nice way there right now with how muslim grooming gangs are protected from reporting)and get abortions so we have more cause for celebration!

Freakysh wrote:

MaverickM11 wrote:

I thought it was going to be a lot closer but I guess not. Great to see the Catholic church less relevant.

Agree. Abortion is a lefty trait. Rather than take responsibility for actions, it's easier to make life dispensible when it causes an inconvenience.

Not a bad thing though, the less lefties brought into the world, the better. Well played Eire.

Riiiiiiiiight...which is why teen and unintended pregnancy is highest in the bible belt, or republicans need to pay their mistresses $1.6M to send their baby right back to Jesus, or why the party's leader is someone who has never taken responsibility for anything ever, other than other people's accomplishments.

Freakysh wrote:

Poverty isn't an excuse in western society. There is plenty of opportunity and support available.

I'm just hearing excuses for why it's all too hard. Typical of the left though, talk a tough game but are spineless when faced with adversity. Or equally likely is selfishness. Always banging on about rights for this group and that, but don't actually do anything themselves to help the less fortunate apart from virtue signal. End of the day number 1 is all that's important in world of left.

Spoken like someone who has no clue what they're talking about, or ever faced any adversity whatsoever.

scbriml wrote:

The implication of your original statement was that it might be OK for a raped woman to have an abortion, but only then grudgingly. If that wasn't what you meant, you need to express yourself more clearly.

No, that’s exactly what I meant. Only under those circumstances can it be remotely okay, and even then only grudgingly. I don’t want a rape victim to be forced to bear her rapists child inside her. But that doesn’t mean that aborting a child under that circumstance is a happy occasion.

Freakysh wrote:

Always banging on about rights for this group and that, but don't actually do anything themselves to help the less fortunate apart from virtue signal.

Civil Rights Act, Affirmative Action, DACA, Affordable Care Act. I don’t know where you are from, but I’m the US, when the left has a chance to do something and enough political will to overcome to right, things get done.

aviationaware wrote:

scbriml wrote:

The implication of your original statement was that it might be OK for a raped woman to have an abortion, but only then grudgingly. If that wasn't what you meant, you need to express yourself more clearly.

No, that’s exactly what I meant. Only under those circumstances can it be remotely okay, and even then only grudgingly. I don’t want a rape victim to be forced to bear her rapists child inside her. But that doesn’t mean that aborting a child under that circumstance is a happy occasion.

How can you argue that it's "remotely okay" whereas at the same time not agreeing that someone should carry a baby of her rapist? Either you are OK that someone carrying the baby of her rapist can abort or you are "not OK" with it. There is no option to have a position in the middle (and thus the word "remotely" only puzzles me). Or can you clarify under which situation someone who carries the baby of her rapist is allowed to abort, and when not?

BTW who says the woman sees the abortion as "a happy occasion". Or do you really believe that a woman sees this as a positive thing? Especially under a rape situation I think implying that someone would be "happy" about this is strange. Probably "reliefed" would be the most positive I could think of, which is quite understandable.

LJ wrote:

Either you are OK that someone carrying the baby of her rapist can abort or you are "not OK" with it.

Can you read? Having my doubts here. Yes, I am okay with that. No, I don't like it.

2122M wrote:

Civil Rights Act

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was filibustered by the Democrats. Just like Democrats voted against the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth amendments to the constitution, and caused women's suffrage to be delayed for many decades. Very dangerous terrain you are treading on there.

aviationaware wrote:

LJ wrote:

Either you are OK that someone carrying the baby of her rapist can abort or you are "not OK" with it.

Can you read? Having my doubts here. Yes, I am okay with that. No, I don't like it.

2122M wrote:

Civil Rights Act

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was filibustered by the Democrats. Just like Democrats voted against the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth amendments to the constitution, and caused women's suffrage to be delayed for many decades. Very dangerous terrain you are treading on there.

You know very well that you are referring to the southern Dixiecrats that left the Democratic Party and have become the deep red south since then.

scbriml wrote:

I believe women should have the choice and that no man (other than the biological father) should have a say in it one way or the other.

Women do have a choice. A choice to use a contraceptive (or a combination of contraceptives for extra safety). A choice to not get drunk and zone out. A choice to say no to any man's request to go bareback. And many more choices to be responsible. Didn't manage to be responsible and disciplined? Fat chance, deal with the consequences and bear that child. Give it up to adoption afterwards if you don't want it. But don't tell me it's her choice to just say fuck it and go get an abortion, because that's evil.

Most abortions are not caused by rape, incest or other monstrous acts. Most abortions are caused by irresponsible behavior of the woman getting the abortion. I will not condone anyone's murder of a child out of convenience, and that's what most abortions are. Pro choice my ass.

aviationaware wrote:

LJ wrote:

Either you are OK that someone carrying the baby of her rapist can abort or you are "not OK" with it.

Can you read? Having my doubts here. Yes, I am okay with that. No, I don't like it.

2122M wrote:

Civil Rights Act

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 was filibustered by the Democrats. Just like Democrats voted against the thirteenth, fourteenth and fifteenth amendments to the constitution, and caused women's suffrage to be delayed for many decades. Very dangerous terrain you are treading on there.

Dangerous terrain because you are so intent on showing the world how you’ve failed basic history? Well mission accomplished!

aviationaware wrote:

scbriml wrote:

I believe women should have the choice and that no man (other than the biological father) should have a say in it one way or the other.

Women do have a choice. A choice to use a contraceptive (or a combination of contraceptives for extra safety). A choice to not get drunk and zone out. A choice to say no to any man's request to go bareback. And many more choices to be responsible. Didn't manage to be responsible and disciplined? Fat chance, deal with the consequences and bear that child. Give it up to adoption afterwards if you don't want it. But don't tell me it's her choice to just say fuck it and go get an abortion, because that's evil.

Most abortions are not caused by rape, incest or other monstrous acts. Most abortions are caused by irresponsible behavior of the woman getting the abortion. I will not condone anyone's murder of a child out of convenience, and that's what most abortions are. Pro choice my ass.

That’s like approving death penalty with the excuse that most people who get executed are murderers, but screw the few that are actually innocent but get sentenced and executed anyway.